The Deception Christians Can’t Be Demonized
Many churches in the Western world will deny, even dogmatically, that a true born-again Christian can be demonized (i.e., be indwelt with or inhabited by a demon). There are many Christians who have issues, such as extreme lust or hearing tormenting voices, but can’t find any effective remedy because the issue is largely (if not, entirely) demonic. How can such a person receive deliverance when many churches falsely believe that a Christian can’t have demons indwelt? The demon(s) need to be expelled from the person! I believe this matter is one of the biggest deceptions among Christians. Do you think the devil would want Christians to know they can be inside their body? Of course not, it is more effective for the enemy to operate unbeknownst.
There is not a single scripture that explicitly reads it is impossible for a Christian can be demonized! Moreover, every single Christian I have interacted with who denies a Christian can be demonized had absolutely no direct experience with expelling a demon. It is astonishing how such Christians can be so dogmatic about their position. Every single Christian that I know who has extensive experience with expelling demons knows that Christians can be demonized.
Those who believe Christians can’t be demonized contradict my personal experiences and observations. I have established relationships with true followers of Jesus who had, by the power and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ, demons expelled. Indeed, anyone with discernment can see that those once demonized Christians are true believers, as they are repentant and sincerely confessed Jesus is Lord. And no one can confess Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). There are many, many born-again Christians who testified they had a demon or demons and had it expelled. Are they all lying or delusional?
Here is a video of my interview with a brother in the Lord, who suffered from demonization for years until it was expelled by my prayers using the authority and name of Jesus. He didn’t know for certain that the horrible symptoms he was suffering from were demonic until I prayed for him, and the demons manifested. He was shocked. No one at his church discerned he had demons indwelt. He could have possibly suffered for the rest of his life if he didn’t receive prayer for deliverance. And I know this brother well enough to know he is a true believer in Jesus Christ.
In this video, I interview Rashaad Gibson, another Pastor who shared his testimony on how he prayed for deliverance, and dramatically felt a demon leave his body.
Modern Christians Testify of the Possibility of Demonization of Christians
Derek Prince (1915-2003), was a Cambridge University scholar and Bible expositor with a global ministry. In his ministry, which spanned decades, he expelled demons from countless Christians. He suffered from the demonization of several spirits. After he accepted Jesus he was not delivered of depression until some years later as he mulled over his bad condition and realized by revelation that it was a generational pattern of affliction caused by a “spirit of heaviness” that had stalked male members of his family.
He wrote about his deliverance:
“I had always regarded my depression and negative attitude as an expression of my own character- something I had been born with. I had felt guilty that I was not a ‘better’ Christian. Now it became clear to me that my struggle was not against part of my own personality at all.
[…]
Something like a huge, heavenly vacuum cleaner came down over me and sucked away the gray mist that shrouded my head and shoulders. At the same time a pressure in the area of my chest was forcibly released, and I gave a little gasp.
God had answered my prayer. Suddenly everything around me seemed brighter. I felt as if a heavy burden had been lifted from my shoulders. I was free! All my life I had been under that oppression. It felt strange to be free. But I discovered quickly that freedom was normal and that oppression was abnormal.
My old enemy did not give up on me; I still had to struggle against depression. But the great difference now was that its attacks came from without, not from within. I gradually learned how to withstand it” (They Shall Expel Demons, pg. 33).
Grayson Ensign, a former Bible College professor and missionary to Jamaica, made this statement:
“We have empirical evidence that Christians have been invaded by evil spirits, for we have extensive notes on the more than one hundred and fifty with whom we have worked in securing deliverance by the Lord Jesus Christ….Our testimony is grounded in literally hundreds of hours of deliverance work where we have experienced the most wonderful liberation of Christians from the control of evil spirits. We have been reared in a tradition that taught demons could not invade or control people and certainly not Christians. We tested every conceivable theory of explanation for what was happening. The only explanation that was systematically consistent and in harmony with the Word of God was that our brothers and sisters had been invaded by evil spirits” (Grayson H Ensign & Edward Howe, Bothered, Bewildered, Bewitched? quoted in Demon Possession & The Christian by C. Fred Dickason).
Kurt Koch, the author of Occult Bondage & Deliverance and Christian Counseling And Occultism as well as many other books on cults and the occult, and has counseled thousands of the occultly oppressed, wrote:
“I met a missionary in Africa who had actually been possessed himself for a period of eighteen months. He, like many others, had previously believed it was impossible for Christians to be possessed. However, his own experience made him change his theological outlook.”
In the Spring of this year (1912) [a certain Christian] who was possessed came here, and the spirits possessing her spoke through her in voices utterly unlike her own. They would utter through her the most awful blasphemies against God, and against our Lord Jesus Christ, and would prophesy concerning the Church…
(later)…Much prayer has been made for her, and with her. When the frenzy comes upon her, she is fearfully shaken, dashes about the room, is made to howl like a dog, her hands clenched, her face drawn with horrible contortions, etc. But the marvel to every one is that, although the frenzy is upon her every day, and sometimes once, twice or more in one day, her health is perfect, she sleeps well, and in the interval is THE MOST LOVELY-SPIRITED CHRISTIAN WOMAN.”
This sister is not one who has not got faith. She is well grounded in the same faith, and has the same light as we have; but we have here to do with a demon, the like of which I have never met before, nor read about…”(Kurt Koch, Occult Bondage & Deliverance, quoted in Demon Possession & The Christian by C. Fred Dickason).
He also wrote:
“If a person’s grandfather, for example, was a spiritist or a magician, then not only his children but sometimes both his grandchildren and great-grandchildren can be born with mediumistic tendencies. Later, if one of his descendants is converted, his mediumistic abilities may suddenly disappear, although in about half the cases they usually remain. That means that a Christian can have mediumistic abilities without really knowing it.” (Kurt E. Koch, Occult Bondage and Deliverance)
The source of mediumistic abilities is demonic.
In Merrill Unger’s “Demons in the World Today“, a Christian, reads:
“… It is possible for a believer to experience severe demon influence or obsession if he persistently yields to demonic temptation and sin… in lands where demon-energized idolatry has flourished unchecked by the gospel for ages, new believers who were delivered from demon possession have been known to become repossessed [demonized] when they return to their old idols. The testimonies of numerous missionaries in pagan areas support this evidence.”
John Ankerberg and John Weldon, very well-researched Christians, wrote:
“In talking with many responsible individuals who counsel in this area and from reading on both sides of this issue, we conclude from our own limited perspective that it is possible for a Christian to be demonized….” (The Coming Darkness, pg. 308)
Kent Philpott, Pastor and counselor, stated:
“It has been my experience that Christians have become demon-possessed through involvement with the occult or by harboring and entertaining sin or a desire for sin. In my ministry to Christians who have been demon-possessed I have noticed that it is common for the demon to hide in order to escape detection. But when the believer starts to grow and draw close to Jesus, the demon will become more active and noticeable….”(Kent Philpott, A Manual of Demonology and the Occult. Quoted in Demon Possession & The Christian by C. Fred Dickason).
Dr. C. Fred Dickason, former Professor of Theology and author, wrote:
“I have encountered from 1974 to 1987 at least 400 cases of those who were genuine Christians who were also demonized. I am not gullible or easily convinced. My background is in engineering, theology, and New Testament. For twenty-six years I have taught Bible and theology (including angelology) and counseled Christians and non-Christians. I would not claim infallible judgment, but I know the marks of a Christian and the marks of a demonized person. I might have been wrong in a case or so, but I cannot conceive that I would be wrong in more than 400 cases…” (Demon Possession & the Christian).
Casting Demons Out of New Christians in the Early Church
It seemed to be a common practice to practice deliverance on new Christians in the early church. Just before their baptism, many of the new believers went through a time of “deliverance ministry,” when a church leader would cast out any demon present in their lives. This is well documented by two excerpts from the Apostolic Tradition, a set of traditions preserved by Hippolytus of Rome (A.D. 170-235). The Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus is “the most illuminating single source of evidence extant of the inner life and religious polity of the early Christian church” according to the editor of the English edition of the Apostolic Tradition.
It reads:
“Moreover, from the day they were chosen, let a hand be laid on them and let them be exorcised [exorkizein] daily. And when the day draws near on which they are to be baptized, let the bishop himself exorcise each one of them, that he may be certain that he is purified” (20.3).
“But if there is one who is not purified let him be put on one side because he did not hear the word of instruction with faith. For the evil and strange spirit remained with him” (20.4).
The church leader performing the baptism also performed deliverance or expelled the demon(s) out of the person. The leader would anoint the person with what they called the oil of exorcism and say, “Let all evil spirits depart from thee” (21.10).
In the following quote, Tertullian, writing about 200 A.D., commented in his writing De Spectaculis that a believer had a demon:
“Why may not those who go into the temptations of the show become accessible also to evil spirits? We have the case of the woman—the Lord Himself is witness—who went to the theatre, and came back possessed. In the outcasting, accordingly, when the unclean creature was upbraided with having dared to attack a believer, he firmly replied,“And in truth I did it most righteously, for I found her in my domain.” Another case, too, is well known, in which a woman had been hearing a tragedian, and on the very night she saw in her sleep a linen cloth—the actor’s name being mentioned at the same time with strong disapproval—and five days after that woman was no more. How many other undoubted proofs we have had in the case of persons who, by keeping company with the devil in the shows, have fallen from the Lord! For no one can serve two masters. What fellowship has light with darkness, life with death?” (Chapter XXVI, bold mine).
Belief in the Demonization of Christians in the Early Church
More examples underscore the fact that it was widely believed in the early church that Christians could be demonized or inhabited by demons.
Perhaps the earliest testimony comes from Hermas (c. A.D. 100 – 150):
“He cannot oppress God’s servants who hope in him with all their heart. The devil can wrestle with them, but he cannot throw and pin them. So, if you resist him, he will be defeated and flee from you in disgrace. But those who are empty fear the devil, as if he had power…. So also the devil comes to all God’s servants to tempt them. All those who are full in the faith resist him mightily, and he leaves them alone, because he finds no place [topos] where he can gain entrance. So then he comes to those who are partially empty, and finding a place he enters them, and then he does what he wants with them, and they become enslaved to him” (Shepherd of Hermas, Mandate 12.5, bold mine).
Hermas clearly thought of the possibility that a Christian could be demonized.
Origen (c. A.D. 185-254), was an important church leader. He actually mentioned that believers have the authority to cast a demon out of themselves. He notes, “Anyone who vanquishes a demon in himself, e.g. the demon of lewdness, puts it out of action; the demon is cast into the abyss, and cannot do any harm to anyone” (Homily on Joshua 15.5, bold mine).
Cyprian (A.D. 200-258), was bishop of the church in Carthage, North Africa. In a letter he wrote to a church leader, Magnus, he relates the struggle sometimes for deliverance ministers in trying to secure deliverance for new believers (the catechumens): “and although he [the demon] often says that he is going out, and will leave the men of God, yet in that which he says deceives, and puts in practice what was before done by Pharoah with the same obstinate and fraudulent deceit” (Epistles 75.15, bold mine).
Cyprian also notes that Christians can be demonized if they yield to sin: “some of those who are baptized in health, if subsequently they begin to sin, are shaken by the return of the unclean spirit, so that it is manifest that the devil is driven out in baptism by the faith of the believer, and returns if the faith afterwards shall fail” (Epistles 75.16, bold mine).
Another ancient writer, often associated with Clement of Rome (who lived near the end of the first century), said to healthy believers “to visit those who are harassed by evil spirits, and pray and pronounce exorcisms over them.” The context is clear that the people who receive this deliverance are other Christians: “In this way let us approach a brother or a sister who is sick.” The writer then said, “Let this man cast out demons and God will help him” (Clement of Rome, Two Epistles Concerning Virginity).
One text from the Clementine literature reveals a belief that a Christian not walking in faith may be indwelt by a demon:
“Therefore the demons themselves, knowing the amount of faith of those of whom they take possession, measure their stay proportionately. Wherefore they stay permanently with the unbelieving, tarry for a while with the weak in faith; but with those who thoroughly believe, and who do good, they cannot remain even for a moment…. The labor, therefore, of everyone is to be solicitous about the putting to flight of his own demon” (Clementine Homilies 9.11, see also Recognitions 4.17, bold mine).
The Apostolic Constitutions (c. 300s), a collection of church practices and regulations from Syria, reflects the deliverance practices performed during the time of training for new Christians, thus further illustrating the Apostolic Tradition that was mentioned earlier: “Ye energumens, afflicted with unclean spirits, pray, and let us all earnestly pray for them, that God, the lover of mankind, will by Christ rebuke the unclean and wicked spirits and deliver His supplicants from the dominion of the adversary” (Apostolic Constitutions 8.6). The people who sought baptism, the church insisted that they completely renounce all occultic practices. This was important for “a sodomite, an effeminate person, a magician, an enchanter, an astrologer, a diviner, an user of magic verses, a juggler [trickster], a mounteback [dealer in spiritistic medicines], one that makes amulets, a charmer, a soothsayer, a fortune-teller, an observer of palmistry” (Apostolic Constitutions 8.32). There was an assumption that anyone engaging in these sorts of practices may be demonized: “if anyone has a demon, let him indeed be taught piety, but not received into communion before he be cleansed; yet if death be near, let him be received” (Apostolic Constitutions 8.32). The document also prohibits a demonized Christian from becoming a leader in the church: “If any one has a demon, let him not be made one of the clergy. Nay, let him not pray with the faithful; but when he is cleansed, let him be received; and if he be worthy, let him be ordained” (Apostolic Canons 79).
There could be more cited from the church leaders of the first three hundred years of the Christian movement. These examples should be enough to show that there was indeed a geographically widespread belief that Christians could be demonized.
The Assumption of the Impossibility Christians Can be Demonized
The most common argument or assumption I have heard that it is impossible for a Christian to be demonized is that the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit can’t dwell in the same temple. Is such a claim really valid? No scripture explicitly supports an assumption. In fact, scripture seems to contradict such an assumption.
In the Old Testament, God’s temple had three main sections: the outer court, the Holy place, and the Holy of Holies. When King Josiah renewed the covenant with God, he found an amazing assortment of abominations in the temple, which included items used in the worship of Baal, Asherah, and the host of heaven. He also discovered an Asherah pole, rooms for the male cult prostitutes operating in the temple, and altars dedicated to other gods (2 Kings 23). Another example is the prophet Ezekiel who dug a hole in the wall of God’s temple and saw “every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about” (Ezekiel 8:10). The spirit behind idols are demons (Deuteronomy 32:17; Psalms 106:36-38; 1 Corinthians 10:19-20). Thus, it’s logical to believe there were demons in God’s temple! So why would it be impossible for demons to dwell in a Christian’s body which is also God’s temple (1 Corinthians. 3:16)?
In Psalms, God’s Spirit is present in hell or sheol (of course He would be since God is omnipresent, right?), the most wicked place in existence.
The Bible reads, “7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there” (Psalm 139:7-8).
If God’s spirit is there then why would it be impossible for an evil spirit to exist in a Christian’s body? Also, in Jeremiah 23:24 it reads God fills the earth, but we know satan roams the earth (Job 1:7).
What place is the holiest place in all existence? How about God’s throne room in heaven? The most wicked entity of all existence, satan, shows up in God’s presence. The Bible reads:
“6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it…..12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord” (Job 1:6-7,12).
If the prince of darkness can show up in the presence of the holiest Being then why would it be impossible for an evil spirit to dwell inside the body of a Christian?
While we are on the Book of Job, it is likely a spirit of infirmity inflicted Job. If God can allow satan to inflict Job who was righteous and upright, then how is it impossible for Christians to also be inflicted?
The Bible is clear that the power of sin can inhabit a Christian’s body and exert a powerful influence that Paul said it can “reign” (Romans 6:12-13). Why are some people dogmatic that another form of evil influence cannot dwell there, namely an evil spirit?
Deliverance is the Children’s Bread
Jesus delivers a person’s child who wasn’t a Jew or a child of Abraham. Jesus said deliverance is for the lost sheep of Israel. It is the children’s bread:
“21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour” (Matthew 15:21-28).
In fact, many times it wouldn’t make much sense to pray for deliverance for unbelievers because once they fall back into sin, the demons will just come right back, and possibly be left in a worse condition than before.
In Matthew 12:45, Jesus said speaking about an evil spirit:
“Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.“
In the following, a “daughter of Abraham” is freed from a spirit of infirmity that satan has bound for years. The Bible reads:
“11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?” (Luke 13)
However, not everyone is a child of Abraham, Jesus called certain people children of the devil (John 8:44). Aren’t Christians children of Abraham through Christ (Galatians 3:29)? So, it would be possible for a Christian to be plagued by a spirit of infirmity.
Let’s move on. The miracle of the discerning of spirits is given to the body of Christ. But what purpose is the discerning of spirits if it weren’t used for the body of Christ? The Bible reads:
“7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ” (1 Corinthians 12:7-12).
Biblical Passages That Seem to Read Christians or Believers Can be Indwelt With a Demon
It reads that Paul himself had a demon indwelt in his body. Yes, I know there are different interpretations for the following scripture, but if one reads it at face value, it really does seem to read Paul had a demon in his body.
“And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger [angel] of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure” (2 Corinthians 12:7, emphasis mine).
According to Strong’s Concordance, a messenger can literally be an angel, and the vast majority of times it is translated as “angel.” So, it could have been that God allowed an angel of satan to dwell in the flesh of Paul to buffet him.
God used Paul to perform extraordinary miracles in Ephesus (Acts 19:11). These manifestations of God’s power included healings and expelling demons: “So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them” (Acts 19:12). But Paul’s deliverance ministry was after explaining “that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks” (Acts 19:10).
It is quite likely that many of the new believers in Christ would have experienced a ministry of deliverance by Paul.
I have not found any passage of scripture that suggests that demons will automatically leave the moment a demonized person converts to Christianity. In the ministry of Philip in Samaria (Acts Ch. 8), it suggests demons don’t automatically leave. If it was the case that demons left automatically when people believed and were baptized, why would Philip have spent time and effort casting them out? He would have simply had the people believe and confess Jesus Christ, which would have automatically expelled the demons.
More passages that seem that is possible for a Christian to be demonized:
Matthew 16:22-23; Mark 8:31-33 The Lord Jesus rebuked satan who spoke through Peter.
Luke 9:52-56 Jesus said to James and John, “…you know not what spirit you are of.“
Acts 5:3 Satan “filled the hearts” of two believers of Jesus to lie to the Holy Spirit. The same Greek word for “filled” (pléroó) is the same word used where it reads we should be filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:52; Ephesians 5:18).
Acts 8:13, 20-24 Simon, a believer in Jesus, needed deliverance from the occult.
1 Cor. 5:1-5 Speaks of a believer who seemed to be filled with a spirit of lust and as a result, delivered over to satan for the destruction of the flesh.
2 Cor. 2:10-11 It is possible for satan can “get advantage” over a believer.
2 Corinthians 11:4 Paul warns believers about receiving “another spirit.” If it is not the Holy Spirit then it must be of the devil. And if it were impossible for Christians to receive another spirit then why would Paul warn them about it?
Galatians 3:1 The apostle Paul rebukes believers for being “bewitched.”
1 Timothy 1:19-20 It reads of two believers who were given over to satan.
2 Timothy 2:24-26 Believers in Jesus can be snared and taken captive by the devil.
Ephesians 4:25-27 Lying and anger can “give place” or a “foothold” to the devil in a Christian’s life. The words “give place” or “foothold” is translated from the Greek word “topos“, which can mean an inhabited space.
Closing Commentary
I don’t believe demons can possess – that is, have full ownership of a Christian. However, Christians can experience demonization which is a demon residing within or indwelling a person, which manifests its effects in various physical and mental disorders and in varying degrees.
Fred Dickason gives his insight concerning the demonization of believers:
“Daimonizomenos does not mean owned by a demon, but simply ‘demonized.’ This basically describes the condition of a person who is inhabited by a demon or demons and is in various degrees under control with various effects. The idea of ownership is foreign to the New Testament word and its usage. Satan and his demons own nothing. God owns them. They are creatures of God. He is in control of them and determines their limitations and their destiny. They are judged by the cross of Christ, defeated, and bankrupt” (Demon Possession and the Christian, p. 130)
Merrill Unger offers his insight:
“It must be stressed that demons cannot indwell a Christian in the same sense that the Holy Spirit indwells. God’s Spirit enters a believer at salvation, permanently, never to leave (John 14:16). A demon, by contrast, enters as a squatter and an intruder, and is subject to momentary eviction. A demon never rightfully or permanently indwells a saint, as the Holy Spirit does, and no demon can ever have any influence over any part of a Christian’s life that is yielded to the Holy Spirit” (What Demons Can Do to Saints, pp. 51-52)
When a born-again Christian willfully and habitually practices sin, I believe the person is leaving doors wide open for demons to possibly inhabit the person. Such a person will need to repent and have the demons cast out. Also, people who were involved in sins such as practicing the occult, or involved in heavy drug use, which opened the doors for demonization may carry over into their Christian life. Indeed, just because a person becomes a Christian doesn’t always mean the demons he or she allowed in before conversion immediately come out. Such a person may also need to have the demons cast out. If it were impossible for Christians to be indwelled with demons, then the sole remedy to have all of a person’s demons expelled would be simply to become Christian rather than to bother with the (many times time-consuming) process of commanding the demons to come out. Has anyone witnessed such a case? God doesn’t usually supernaturally heal people from all the consequences of their sins (e.g., STDs) once they convert. So, why expect God will always expel demons from people the moment they convert? People with previous drug or sexual addictions may continue to suffer the normal consequences of their activities or continue to struggle with an addiction for years. But as the new converts grow in the Lord and become strong Christians, these problems are successfully dealt with. And this can be the case with demonization.
Why do some people argue adamantly that Christians can never be demonized? There are several possible reasons. The very idea can be emotionally disturbing and upsetting. There is the issue of personal pride and/or professional reputation which, in an environment where the very idea may be ridiculed, can make it hard for someone to seriously consider the possibility. Further, in the West, we simply do not have the kind of experience Christians have in countries (such as Haiti and Subsaharan African countries) where there are widespread and extensive pagan and occult practices that lead to demonization. As a result, most in the West are unprepared to deal with what we have never encountered. It can also be the person is demonized himself and the demons are influencing the person to believe a Christian can never be demonized.
It is far more detrimental to the Body of Christ to believe a Christian can’t be demonized than to believe a Christian can be demonized. If the belief that a Christian can’t be demonized is wrong (and it is wrong), then that leaves many Christians without an effective remedy plagued with issues that exist because of demonization, namely deliverance.
Ensign and Howe commented:
“Many of the people we have worked with have admitted they had problems in various parts of their mental, moral, physical, and spiritual life; but they never identified that behavior with demonic control until they were actually tested by the Lord and His servants. Many think that these severe difficulties which they must fight against as Christians are just a part of their personality, inherited traits, or the way they happen to function. But compulsive and/or irrational behavior which is immoral or which constantly defeats the witness and integrity of the children of God is almost always evidence of either demonic harassment (external) or demonic control (internal). Among such “normal” and accepted problems may be fear, rage, anger, pride, confusion of the mind, lust, sex, homosexuality, temper, lying, gluttony, depression, resentment, infirmity, sickness, inferiority complex, and others” (quoted in Demon Possession & The Christian by C. Fred Dickason).
I have encountered Christians who were demonized and couldn’t get any help in churches because of the entrenched belief it is impossible for a Christian to be demonized. If such churches had discernment, they would have known the root of the issue and dealt with it accordingly. But how is it detrimental to the Body of Christ to have the belief a Christian can be demonized?
There are several ways demons can get into a Christian’s life, even to the point of demonization. Click here for more information.
Jesus Truth Deliverance 
No, they cannot. To indicate otherwise is to say that God is a weak sissy liberal Hillary Clinton supporter.
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Have you ever cast a demon out of someone? I will take your opinion seriously if you had actual experience in deliverance.
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I have heard experience from people who have casted demons out. And they agree with me. One of whom is my pastor/uncle.
So I have checked with eyewitness testimonies.
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I have watched hundreds of deliverances in Emanuel TV on YouTube. I am an experienced spirit filled Christian myself and know these are not “fake”. In any case, many if not most of the deliverances are for professing Christians who have as many as several demons dwelling in their physical bodies, and manifesting when confronted by the deliverance minister. In their natural state, most of these Christians are aware they are having problems in their lives, but don’t realize they have demons operating in them as the source of the problems.
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I’m a Christian and I know I have a demon that entered me when I was on drugs years ago
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Yes because you were on drugs that’s going against Christ
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Again
1 John 5 18
James 4 7
1 John 4 4
Ephesians 6/10-17
Early church fathers:
“Do you fear man, O Christian?— you who ought to be feared by the angels, since you are to judge angels; who ought to be feared by evil spirits, since you have received power also over evil spirits” (De Fuga in Persecutione, 9).
Origen: “And Christians have nothing to fear, even if demons should not be well-disposed to them; for they are protected by the Supreme God, who is well pleased with their piety, and who sets His divine angels to watch over those who are worthy of such guardianship, so that they can suffer nothing from demons. He who by his piety possesses the favor of the Most High, who has accepted the guidance of Jesus, the Angel of the great counsel, being well contented with the favor of God through Christ Jesus, may say with confidence that he has nothing to suffer from the whole host of demons” (Contra Celsus, Book VIII:27).
“We do not, then, deny that there are many demons upon earth, but we maintain that they exist and exercise power among the wicked, as a punishment of their wickedness. But they have no power over those who have put on the whole armor of God, who have received strength to withstand the wiles of the devil, and who are ever engaged in contests with them, knowing that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (ibid., 34).
And the demons, when despised, can do no harm to those who are under the protection of Him who can alone help all who deserve His aid; and He does no less than set His own angels over His devout servants, so that none of the hostile angels, nor even he who is called the prince of this world, can effect anything against those who have given themselves to God” (ibid., 36).
They do indeed injure, but those only by whom they are feared, whom the powerful and lofty hand of God does not protect, who are uninitiated in the mystery of truth. But they fear the righteous, that is, the worshipers of God, adjured by whose name they depart from the bodies of the possessed: for, being lashed by their words as though by scourges, they not only confess themselves to be demons, but even utter their own names— those which are adored in the temples— which they generally do in the presence of their own worshipers; not, it is plain, to the disgrace of religion, but to the disgrace of their own honor, because they cannot speak falsely to God, by whom they are adjured, nor to the righteous, by whose voice they are tortured. Therefore ofttimes having uttered the greatest howlings, they cry out that they are beaten, and are on fire, and that they are just on the point of coming forth: so much power has the knowledge of God, and righteousness! Whom, therefore, can they injure, except those whom they have in their own power? In short, Hermes [pagan pseudonymic author Hermes Tresmegistus] affirms that those who have known God are not only safe from the attacks of demons, but that they are not even bound by fate” (Divine Institutes, Book II:16).
“May Christians nevertheless be possessed? Yes, but only if they go for it, that is, if they again actively seek the domain of the demons’ power. Several historians of religion have been struck by this peculiar characteristic in the oldest Christian writings: Here we meet people with a security and a confidence of victory over against the demonic world which one hardly sees elsewhere in antiquity. They have met one who is infinitely more powerful than the demons; therefore he has taken away from them all fear and anxiety and given them a unique security.“
He told me: “For us Christians, when we experience Christ there is no Antichrist. . . .
“When we have Christ inside us, can the Antichrist come? Can anything opposite this enter our souls? For this reason, my child, today we do not have Christ within us and because of this we worry about the Antichrist.“
Hermas actually Argues that a believer can not be possessed.
twelfth Commandment of Hermas again encourages the believer not to fear the devil because he cannot “hold sway over the servants of God, who with all their heart place their hopes in Him.”
argues that the devil can wrestle against believers but true believers will resist the devil strongly and cannot be overthrown
Satan has no way of entering into (possessing) believers and instead goes into those whom are empty (non-believers)
Justin martyr:
reminds the believer of his authority in Christ they “exorcise all demons and evil spirits, have them subjected to us.”
this authority to overcome and subdue the evil spirits is effective over “every demon.”
Dr Peck:
“Following Martin, Peck believes the human will is key to understanding both possession and exorcism. People make choices that have consequences. One patient chose to believe her father’s lies when he abused her sexually as a 12-year-old. The patient in the other case study avoided talk about her childhood, but the starting point of possession may have had to do with an evil book that fascinated her. There is always some act of the will, however small, that opens the self to possession.”[13]
St. John Chrysostom says: “God anoints your countenance and stamps thereon the sign of the Cross. In this way does God hold in check all the frenzy of the Evil One; for the devil will not dare to look upon such a sight. Just as if he had beheld the rays of the sun and had leaped away, so will his eyes be blinded by the sight of your face and he will depart.”
ALSO in Mark a sign of a believer is power over serpents!
Saying this created huge theological debate because then why wouldn’t any demon just demonize people. They tempt us and that leads to our free will. Will open that door or will we choose Christ. The biggest of all is 1 John 5 18 “evil one cannot touch them”
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I think the issue is actually a “true Christian.” Not one who is Christian in name yet constantly sins. What about 1 John 5:18? The verse in Timothy says have two believers over to Satan because they blasphemed. They sinned and devil gave control. Many church fathers note this and you even quoted them. They said a “true Christian.” Look at the quotes. One quote about the Christina’s getting possed was because she went to a pagan theater. It even said in the quote “they rebuked the demon for having dared attack a believer” and the demon says “I’ve found her in my dominion.” Concluding dont open any doors to evil
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I have produced an entire video series exposing the fallacies of this false doctrine saying Christians can have indwelling demons. Nothing on this website or in any book has demonstrated from the Bible that true, born again Christians can be demonized. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhm0Ibi0sjI&list=PLwmgRTGkRRNc2LHAj3rUUf54XzfUV-cUS&ab_channel=CRoadwarrior
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You are deceived. Christians surely can have demons indwelt. I am curious, how many people have you cast demons out of? Let me guess, ZERO! Show me where in the Bible that a Christian can’t be demonized?
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I am far from deceived, since my doctrine can be found in the Bible. It tells me clearly that I have the indwelling Spirit, and that all Christians have that Spirit in them. Nowhere does the Bible tell us that demons indwell Christians.
And as I have pointed out, I have interviewed people who were in “deliverance” longer than you and will tell you the same thing I’m saying, so it doesn’t matter how many demons I’ve cast out or not. That is just a red herring argument avoiding the issue at hand. And that issue is that nowhere in the Bible are we told anything about demons having the ability to indwell those who are indwelt by the Spirit. You show me that, and I’ll accept your doctrine. But until then, I stand by what the Bible clearly says.
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Nah, you are really deceived. You haven’t shown one scripture that it is impossible for a Christian to be indwelt with a demon. You show me a scripture that I will accept your doctrine. Where in the Bible where it clearly says it is impossible for a Christian can’t be indwelt with a demon? I will be waiting.
Maybe if you really humble yourself and ask God to give you the truth on this matter He will answer you.
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And you fail to understand the basic principle that it is the person making an affirmative claim, that Christians CAN have indwelling demons, who must demonstrate that claim. You are asking me to prove a negative. But you must first prove your affirmation. I don’t have to first disprove your initial affirmation. So learn the basics of debate/discussion.
I am far from deceived. I simply know how to correctly read and understand the Bible. I have shown in detail exactly how people in this “deliverance” ministry distort, misquote and abuse the Bible to come up with this false doctrine.
Now you can keep playing the game of trying to get me to prove a negative against your affirmation, but play that by yourself. You can’t show me ONE clear passage in the entire Bible where a clear Christian is indwelt by a demon. You can provide several passages showing this. But I have already shown with clear and plain texts that Christians have the indwelling Spirit. Now if you can’t see a problem there, then I suggest seeing an ophthalmologist.
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You have committed the logical fallacy of the argument from ignorance, which occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proven true. Many philosophers and logicians actually disagree with the catchphrase “you can’t prove a negative.” A real, actual law of logic is negative, namely the law of non-contradiction. The law states that a proposition cannot be both true and not true. Nothing is both true and false. Yes, that’s right. One of the laws of logic is a provable negative. It’s usually people who claim you can’t prove a negative are people who have a desperate desire to believe whatever one believes even with all the evidence against it.
You made a theological claim that contradicts many, many observations of born again Christians even going back to the very early church, and without scriptural support. Therefore, you do have a burden to prove your assertion, even if it is negative one, which you have failed to do. If someone asserted”God does not exist” without any support for the claim, are you really going to say the person doesn’t need to support the negative claim? Asserting God doesn’t exist is question-begging until some argument or justification is offered.
“Nowhere does the Bible tell us that demons indwell Christians.”
Actually, you are wrong.
I wrote:
“It reads that Paul himself had a demon indwelt in his body. Yes, I know there are different interpretations for the following scripture but if one reads it at face value it really does read Paul had a demon in his body.
“And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger [angel] of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure” (2 Corinthians 12:7, emphasis mine).
According to Strong’s Concordance, a messenger can literally be an angel, and the vast majority of times it is translated as “angel.” So, God allowed an angel of Satan to dwell in the flesh of Paul to buffet him.”
But of course, since you are deceived you will try to explain it away in such an example.
So I will ask again, since you made the dogmatic assertion, where in the Bible does it read a Christian can’t be demonized? I’ll be waiting.
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And I repeat. Learn the basics of debate/discussion. The person who positively affirms something has the burden of proof to prove that affirmation. So if you affirm that Christians can have indwelling demons, it is on you to do so. You make a grave error to then turn around and tell me I have to disprove what you affirm before you even attempt to prove your assertion. So no, I did not commit the fallacy of the argument from ignorance.
My theological claim may be against the “observations” of many people, but it i not against the Bible. I again point out that neither you nor any human being knows for certain who is born again and who is not. To argue such is foolishness, since the Bible makes clear, as I’ve pointed out before, that only God knows the heart. So claiming in any instance that you cast a demon from a born again Christian is a claim you can’t hope to prove with certainty. For all you know, you were dealing with a false believer, a demonized person pretending to be a Christian.
When I said “Nowhere does the Bible tell us that demons indwell Christians.”
You retorted that I was wrong and then posted 2 Corinthians 12:7. But here’s the problem for people who don’t know how to actually read the original Greek text.
You want to say that this text proves Paul “had a demon indwelt in his body.” Yet the text doesn’t use the word “indwelt.” That’s your insertion, not what the text says.
But in the Greek text, it does not say Paul had a thorn “in” the flesh. No Greek preposition or word for “in” can be found in that text. What you have is the Greek words “flesh” and the preceding definite article “the” put in the Greek Dative case. The Dative case usually translates “to” or “for,” not “in.”
So the text is saying either “thorn for the flesh” or “thorn to the flesh,” but it is not saying “thorn in” the flesh. Here are two translations that bare this out:
Darby Translation: And that I might not be exalted by the exceeding greatness of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn FOR the flesh, a messenger of Satan that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English: Lest I be lifted up by the abundance of revelations, a thorn for my flesh was handed over to me, an Angel of Satan to buffet me, lest I be lifted up.
You can also look up what the Dative case in Koine Greek means and how it’s supposed to be translated to confirm what I’m saying.
So this is not “explaining away” anything. I am not “deceived” simply because you claim it. This is about digging deeper into the text to see what is really being said from the details of the actual text itself. And what we find is that we don’t have anything saying “in” the flesh in the text in Greek. That fact you must deal with, or just irrationally dismiss it or “explain away” a fact that just happens to mitigate against your view.
But the truth is the truth. What you do with it is up to you.
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I am not going to waste my time after this again. I will explain one more time. If you make an assertion, you do have a burden of proof to back it up. It’s not so much about you disproving what I affirm but proving what you adamantly affirm, which is Christians can’t be indwelt with demons. You made the claim what you said is true because it has not supposedly yet been proven false. You committed the fallacy of argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam) aka appeal to ignorance. In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof, in this case you commit the fallacy so you can be let off the hook about not backing up your claim. It’s not going to work with me. I’m sorry if this goes over your head. It’s been several days and you still can’t back it up scripturally.
And you can’t prove with certainty that the demons out of people weren’t real Christians. If you were actually wise and a truth seeker you would actually investigate yourself if it was the case instead of spouting off as if what you claim is the absolute truth. Do you think Derek Prince was a false convert? He says he had deliverance while being a Christian. If you ever stop being deluded maybe you should get prayer for deliverance. Maybe there is a spirit of error in you.
Are you a Greek scholar? Where did you earn your credentials? Just about every Bible translation reads “in the flesh”. They were wrong in translating in such a way according to what Greek scholar?
New International Version
or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
New Living Translation
even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.
English Standard Version
So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.
Berean Study Bible
or because of these surpassingly great revelations. So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
Berean Literal Bible
and the surpassingness of the revelations. Therefore, that I should not become conceited, a thorn in my flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, that he might buffet me, so that I should not become conceited.
New American Standard Bible
Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me– to keep me from exalting myself!
New King James Version
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
King James Bible
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Christian Standard Bible
especially because of the extraordinary revelations. Therefore, so that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to torment me so that I would not exalt myself.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
especially because of the extraordinary revelations. Therefore, so that I would not exalt myself, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to torment me so I would not exalt myself.
International Standard Version
To keep me from becoming conceited because of the exceptional nature of these revelations, a thorn was given to me and placed in my body. It was Satan’s messenger to keep on tormenting me so that I would not become conceited.
NET Bible
even because of the extraordinary character of the revelations. Therefore, so that I would not become arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to trouble me–so that I would not become arrogant.
New Heart English Bible
And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, therefore, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to pound away at me, to keep me from exalting myself.
A Faithful Version
But in order that I might not be exalted by the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, an angel of Satan to buffet me, so that I might not be exalted.
GOD’S WORD® Translation
especially because of the excessive number of revelations that I’ve had. Therefore, to keep me from becoming conceited, I am forced to deal with a recurring problem. That problem, Satan’s messenger, torments me to keep me from being conceited.
New American Standard 1977
And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me—to keep me from exalting myself!
King James 2000 Bible
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
American King James Version
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
American Standard Version
And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh, an angel of Satan, to buffet me.
English Revised Version
And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations–wherefore, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.
Webster’s Bible Translation
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Weymouth New Testament
And judging by the stupendous grandeur of the revelations–therefore lest I should be over-elated there has been sent to me, like the agony of impalement, Satan’s angel dealing blow after blow, lest I should be over-elated.
World English Bible
By reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted excessively, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me, that I should not be exalted excessively.
Young’s Literal Translation
and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of the Adversary, that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted overmuch.
It’s funny you resort to approx. 15% of Bible translations to try to support your false claim. It’s desperation to try to explain it away on your part.
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And as for “waiting,” I’m still waiting for you to show where in the Bible it says God cannot be demonized….because that’s the question I want answered if you insist on asking where it says Christians cannot be demonized. So I’m still waiting…
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Mr. Williams. I taught myself Koine Greek using lessons and a grammar created by Dr George A. Hadjiantoniou, and audio tapes recorded by Dr. Spiros Zodhiates. Then I had that knowledge test at an accredited university in New York called Hunter College. I also taught Greek for a short time at the Bible Church of Christ Theological Institute in the Bronx, NY.
After that, I skipped Greek I in Talbot Theological Seminary (since I already knew it) and took Greek II, and took Greek all the way up to Exegesis in the Gospels. Here are my grades:
TTNT 502 GR Beginning Greek II A
TNT 503 GR Intro to Exegesis A-
TTNT 604 GR Exegesis in the Gospels A
Now I don’t claim to be a scholar, but yet I do know what I’m talking about. Just claiming that x amount of translations say “in the flesh” doesn’t prove anything except that you don’t know Greek and must blindly rely on English translations. But I learned long ago the danger in doing that. So the question is, are you going to continue blindly accepting what English translations tell you, or are you going to investigate the facts for yourself?
There is no “desperation” on my part, and you shold know the fallacy of consensus gentim doesn’t work in how we arrive at truth. I know Greek well enough to recognize a) that there is no word or preposition in that text meaning “in” b) the words there are in the Dative case, which usually translates “to” or “for.”
I have solid grammatical grounds for what I’m saying, and the fact that all translations do not render the passage in question as “in the flesh” actually validates the point.
But I understand you have a theology to protect, so certain original language facts are uncomfortable. But they are facts nonetheless.
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I see. You are not a Greek scholar but you know better than the Bible translators, especially of the NASB translation, which was translated by actual scholars and those with Doctorates in Greek. You should tell them to correct it since you know better.
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Hmm…I tried to post something but was not allowed. Did you block me?
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I did not block you. Maybe if you posted links or used curse words it won’t allow you to post
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Did I or anyone else made the claim God cannot be demonized? No. So why ask? That is a very silly question considering God is omnipotent and the only one who is good. Are you omnipotent? Are you good?
You came with your guns blazing adamantly asserting Christians can’t be demonized. You didn’t even attempt to try to back it up scripturally. Why? Because no where in the Bible does it even suggest such a thing. Admit it, this false idea of Christians can’t be demonized is merely your personal opinion. It is a garbage opinion at that since you have no firsthand experience with casting demons out of people.
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Mr. Williams. Due to the nature of the kind of responses I have received from both you and Mr. Gibson, it takes up too much time to respond to both of you. I extend to you the same invitation to come on my show and explain your views.
I do not need to have “firsthand” experience in a false doctrine taught nowhwere in the Bible. As I pointed out in my series, the leader of the Mormon cult had an experience too. But I reject his experience on the same basis I reject yours.
Demons are real, but nowhere does the Bible teach we are to be casting demons from Christians who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, not demons. What I suggest you do is watch my entire 15 part video series (not all at once, of course…lol), and deal with what is said and revealed. I demonstrate in painstaking detail, sometimes from the original Greek and Hebrew, that what you believe is false doctrine. So I’m not going to waste time here when I’ve spent hours producing a video series refuting what you claim, and the misapplication of passages people attempt to use to prove this false doctrine.
As I pointed out earlier, just as I don’t need a verbatim passage saying God or Jesus can’t be demonized, the same applies to Christians. The Bible clearly tells us about the indwelling Spirit IN Christians, but we have not ONE passage telling us about any demons inside of Christians.
As the Rev. Dr. Walter Martin pointed out in a video, God is not building a “douplex” in us to share room with demons. I’ll leave you with that.
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I rather not go on your show, but I will discuss this with you over the phone/Skype if you want.
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So you are not willing to publicly discuss and defend what you believe? I don’t understand. Skype can be problematic, and the phone is ok but not the same as seeing a live person. If you really believe this stuff and are so sure you’re correct, then you should have no problem discussing it publicly.
Also, I was looking for your comments on my channel and can’t find them. Did you remove them?
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I did not remove my comments off your channel. I thought you did.
Why would you want to discuss this publicly with me when you will lose the debate? It won’t look good for you.
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No, Mr. Williams. I did not remove your comments. I was looking for them so I could respond to them after I was done with Mr. Gibson, and when I went to look for them to respond, I could not find them. I know people can remove their own comments, so I figured you might have.
Why would I want to discuss this with you publicly when I will “lose the debate”? Since I actually know the Biblical languages and you don’t, I’m having a real hard time understanding how you could come to the conclusion that I would “lose” a debate over a doctrine that’s not really in the Bible. Knowing not only the languages but proper hermeneutics means I understand the Bible the way it was meant to be understood. Knowing also some science and logic, I am able to expose any logical or scientific fallacies in your reasoning. So I really fail to see how in the world you arrived at such a conclusion.
Nevertheless, I’m not concerned about “losing” a debate or discussion. I’m concerned with truth, and exposing error for what it is. I don’t have a problem inviting people on my channel that disagree with me. Pastor Chris tried it but it didn’t go well for him, since he was woefully unable to prove his view, and had issues with rudeness and lack of self-control. But the invitation stands for you or anyone else. My views can stand scrutiny. Yours…not doing so good right now according to my series and the kinds of nonresponses I’m getting.
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You seem very prideful, and pride has surely blinded you.
Sure, we can discuss or debate it if you want. Feel free to shoot me a text or message via phone or Skype and I will respond shortly to set up a time to call. Contact info found here https://jesustruthdeliverance.com/2016/08/21/about/
That said, I still rather it not go on the internet.
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Mr. Williams. I’m trying to understand how speaking the truth about your knowledge is somehow seeming “very prideful”? So if I tell you I won the Zondervan award for achievement in Biblical Hebrew, that mere statement of fact is supposed to be “pride”? I don’t know what dictionary you’re going by, but making a statement of fact is note defined lexically or Biblically as “prideful.” So let’s not make up our own definitions.
You had no problem going on the Internet with brother Gibson teaching “deliverance,” but you don’t want to do the same thing with me? I’m not doing any private calls or Skypes. You did a public video with brother Gibson teaching this false doctrine, so you should be willing to go on the Internet with someone challenging those same teachings. So when you’re ready, I am not hard to find.
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I tell you this out of love, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!
1) You never expelled a demon out of someone.
2) You haven’t shown in scripture it is impossible for a Christian to be demonized.
You can find me too. Add me on Skype (Jamaal27).
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Why can’t statements of fact be prideful?
Pride as a sin is a preoccupation with our own abilities, and a refusal to accept the possibility of our own errancy. Stating “I won the Zondervan award for achievement in Biblical Hebrew” could absolutely be prideful, depending on the intent of the statement, who it was said to, and when.
It also runs contrary to the admonishments we have in the scriptures not to talk up our own abilities, but instead to boast in our weaknesses. I find it amazing that I watched two well informed and strong Christians debate the minutiae of 2 Corinthians 12 in the same moment that they were boasting about the rightness of their own credentials and beliefs – given the context of the verse talks about how Paul is only willing to boast of his weaknesses:
“5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.(I) 6 Even if I should choose to boast,(J) I would not be a fool,(K) because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations.(L) Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh,(M) a messenger of Satan,(N) to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.(O) 9 But he said to me, “My grace(P) is sufficient for you, for my power(Q) is made perfect in weakness.(R)”(S) Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight(T) in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships,(U) in persecutions,(V) in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.(W)”
I’m not credentialed or well versed in scripture. I’m a gullible fallible man prone to error and easily deceived. I left the faith at 18, became an atheist for ten years, and then had an encounter with a coven of witches that demonstrated a valuable lesson to me.
I am nothing.
All I have is Christ. All anyone has is Christ.
Everything else is hevel, a mere mirage that can’t even be grasped in our hands.
I bet my bottom dollar that each one of us, in this very moment, is deceived about something pertaining to scripture. We are not God. We are led by the Holy Spirit into all truth, but that is a gradual process. A gradual process of learning just how utterly finite and imperfect and vacant the thoughts of our own hearts and minds are. A gradual process whereby the lies we have been hoodwinked into believing are gently corrected by God directly, through scriptures, and yes – the Spirit teaching through each other.
So maybe instead of shouting about how wrong we think each of us is, we could stop and say what the other person definitely, without doubt, gets right. Then balance that with a statement of something we disagree with, and ask for the other person to clarify why they believe what they believe.
Because I’ll bet my second bottom dollar that we all agree on much more than we disagree on.
Maybe that way we could try to understand one another, rather than demonize each other.
After all, don’t the demons do a good enough job of that without our help? 😉
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AWaywardShepherd. Paying attention to context will reveal that while a statement of fact CAN be prideful, this one was not prideful due to context and intent. So let’s not play games or make claims which ignore facts. I stated a relevant fact that bares on the issue of proper Bible interpretation. If you don’t know the original languages of the Bible (Hebrew and Greek), you will run into problems of interpretation and you will ultimately misinterpret the Bible at times due to depending on a bad translations.
I understand the overall point you’re trying to make, but we can’t ignore major issues for the save of unity. How we interpret and understand the Bible is vitally important, and nothing substitutes for sound doctrine derived from the Bible.
I believe a good statement is this. In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.
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How many dollars have you got??!
Seriously, you’re right on the money. No human being ever gets everything right, particularly about scripture. God’s mind and intelligence is infinite. We are mere saplings floating in a vast sea of misunderstanding and usually in the dark, blown this way and that.
Job has this explained to him. We are to question God?!?!
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I posted this on your Youtube channel but because of your Youtube settings it filtered it out.
Arthur Daniels Jr aka CRoadWarrior, this young woman I prayed for is as Christian as you, perhaps even more so. She prays, fasts, repented of her sins, and most importantly she believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and believes He is Lord and God. She believes in the eternal Gospel. Guess what? I expelled demons out of her. How is that possible if your false belief is true? Video on >>> https://youtu.be/M2HBSernNlw
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Arthur Daniels Jr., you have a spirit of pride. It obvious to any impartial observer that you value your own opinions and your own understanding above others. That is pride. You simply think you know better and do not have a teachable spirit. That is why you still retain the spirit of pride. Humble yourself and you can be set free.
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Yes, he certainly has pride issues.
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As a christian of seven years i had a spirit of fear cast out of me.My own experiance is that christians can and do have demons.But my question is,please show me just one scripture that says a christian can not have a demon.
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Thanks for sharing.
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I suggest that demands for “Show me one verse that says we should/should not (or proves) !” are sophomoric since there are many passages that are explicit, but still need some Hermeneutics applied while others are easy to interpret and very clear.
E.g. “Thou shalt not kill.” has been misinterpreted that the only the Israelites should ever kill another person since the commandment was given to them. Then it is misinterpreted as no one from ANY peoples should ever kill another person, eventually leading to the absurdity of claiming no institution (e.g. government) should ever kill any person. Only careful study of the verse, in context, then comparing to the rest of Scripture will show that it means no one should ever MURDER someone and capital punishment is authorized by God under the authority of a government using just laws. (Too many verses to reference for this here.)
Study hermeneutics and exegesis and you’ll find you’ll be more accurate with Scripture.
For this issue, assuming “demonized” means being possessed/indwelt temporarilhy or permanently by a demon, and assuming a “Xn” is someone who is indwelt (or possessed, to be literal) permanently by the Holy Spirit opposed to O.T. times where the HS would come and go, e.g. with King David, then I’d say:
1) I know of no verses explicitly stating that a Xn CAN be “demonized”. Using proper exegesis, there is overwhelming evidence of this.
2) I know of no verses explicitly stating that a Xn CANNOT be “demonized”. Using proper exegesis, there is no evidence of this.
This site puts it very well, so I’ll defer to them instead of spelling out everything here.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-demon-possessed.html
Anyone’s personal anecdotal experience may suggest they were demonized after they became a Xn, but I would counter they were most likely not a Xn at the time or they may still not be one today, particularly if they still feel or “know” or have been “told” they are possessed.
I will not state any of my CV here as it is not relevant to the truth of Scripture. I wll state, however, that I have been a believer for a very long time and have had very good discipleship over the years. i guess you could call me an elder.
Please, no ad hominem attacks. And I see through some people’s posts that shows they know how to “Google” logical fallacies, then cut and paste them into the post to make it appear they have a solid understanding of logic, so no more of that, please.
Thanks.
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To be clear, I meant in 1) and 2) above that there is overhwelming evidence that a Xn cannot be possessed and no evidence that a Xn can be possessed. My numbered list items could be misread as i wasn’t clear enough. Sorry.
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How many people have you expelled demons out of?
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It is entirely possible for practising Christians to be oppressed spiritually by demonic forces. Possessed suggests a Christian could be completely taken over by a spirit or spirits without knowing. I think even this is possible but much less so. Many illnesses and many things in our lives are the result of spiritual assault. Note I didn’t say spiritual warfare. Many practising Christians the world over do not even partially understand how important spiritual warfare is. Even pastors, vicars, priests and reverends dismiss it as irrelevant and/or mediaeval.
Paul himself was harried by ‘a messenger from Satan’. He was aware of it though. That is the first step for Christians. Derek Prince talked a lot about spiritual warfare. We are in this war whether we like it or not, if we are practising Christians.
I have a long experience of this. Have suffered from numbers of things Jamaal so eloquently, clearly and precisely writes about.
God bless.
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